Freedom Is or is it not ?

Mithrandirxx

Mithrandirxx

The Administration Mage
Staff member
What is freedom, what constitutes freedom in any social form ? Is there freedom in any governing system currently known ? Can Freedom exist with in a society ? Or is Freedom merely an ideal which we as a species attempt to attain similarly to the ideal of perfection ? Can a person ever known true freedom conciously in this world ?
 
Freedom "Noun" "Meaning to be free to choose!"

2. Getting a little bit technical there eh? For one answer, the constitution of the U.S.

3.Yes there is, In America, the way is paved by the judicinal side of order. They can respute certain things if they don't follow parts of the original Constitution.

4.We already see that Freedom exists. It exists here in America, granted that it's questionable, but there are facts that support it.

5.That we try to attain? And just how many countries other then america have such freedoms eh?

6.Depends on if you view the glass as half empty, or half full. Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, but we darn well better have "Some" god giving freedoms. Our Brave, proud soldier's believe in this country's freedom, and that many people involved in war, Can't "ALL" be wrong!
 
The short answer is 'No, we will never experience Pure, Distilled, Absolute Freedom.' We aren't free to do absolutely anything we want. If I want to go on a killing spree, I might be able to get in quite a few kills, but eventually, someone would stop me. They would likely stop me by killing me. And unless that was the end I chose to have, I wouldn't have the freedom to have my killing spree, and still live a full life until my natural death. We will be forever bound by the consequences of our choices. And that will prevent us from ever experiencing the purest of freedom.

However, there is a lesser version of freedom which is impossible for us to be without. That version of freedom is the ability to make a decision when a choice is presented to us. We may not always have a lot to choose from, but we do always have some sort of choice, and the ability to choose from some array of options, no matter how limited, is a freedom we will always have.

Everything Ullery talked about with the constitution falls between those extremes. Every way in which a society or government tries to protect or encroach on freedom is really only affecting the variety of options available to that inalienable freedom we have, or else is dictacting what the consequenses will be for a choice we make.
 
Freedom, by which I meant similarly to these definitions.However primarily 2, and 17 seem the most on course with my view. I suppose I should have said True Freedom or Absolute Freedom. free‧dom  /ˈfridəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[free-duhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
6. exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from): freedom from fear.
7. the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.
14. civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government.
17. Philosophy. the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination.

So then in a democracy we are permitted, though our(American) system limited freedoms that are prescribed from the ethics of the social base, but are left with many freedoms chained down because they do not follow the public view of whats right and wrong ?

Ullery the Constitution of the United States of America Guarantees certain freedoms but not all freedoms. This has both a positive and negative effect. Plato and Socrates touch on the failings of a democracy and its Freedoms that cause the downfall of the system in which Freedoms are chosen by the people in the Republic (Book 8).

However a system based on handing freedoms of Speech, Press, Religion, Peacably Assembly, or Petition, allows new freedoms to be added in, or denied entirely. For a wild idea lets say the freedom to wear green shirts is denied to the people. It is not a protected freedom, and is able to be considered a privledge, and not a freedom at all. Look with eyes open Ullery at everything not covered by those five simple freedoms and see where they are lacking when applied to day to day life. Then look at the United States as a whole, and understand that each new freedom we want to add to the current system or limiting past non-controled freedoms only weaken the system.
 
*smiles.* Points well observed mith.
And true we don't have full fledged 100 percent freedom.
True our system has flaws.

But my strongest point in this discussion is simply this.

Our military.

Our men and women who go off to fight in wars from sea to shining sea.
And is it right for us the american people, to be the judges of what our soldiers should believe in?

Granted a great many of us want our army to come back home now after a job well done. But certain points of fact, make that an improbability in the highest form.

What purpose do we live for if not for our freedoms and beliefs?
Granted religion is a major ball park issue.
But do you not have any freedom from which to strive and live mith?
Do you not live in the america that I live in?
Yeah we see wars right here in our home country day to day.
But how much pity do we show ourselves as a species for creating all this havoc and chaos hmm?
 
Well Ullery is it right to like the color blue ? I would like to say yes we can ask does this soldier represent what I believe ? If not why so ? I am not saying that we disagree with the soldiers, although I have been known to argue with a few of my friends who were in the Marines, and Army. What I am saying is that simply put the freedoms in this nation we call America, are not the only freedoms, nor could our country as it is survive with all the freedoms we know of.

You ask an interesting question probably the smartest thing I can recall you every saying, so I shall make a reply to it as best I can. We live not for our freedoms and not for our beliefs but to define those beliefs and find those freedoms that we need to survive. No system is with out its Achilles heel. No ideal perfect in its practical use, its only through learning and gaining understanding of those things that define who we are that we live. To steal a quote from an Anime called Saiyuki " If you meet the Buddha, Kill the Buddha, if you meet your father, Kill your father, for those who are bound by nothing, are capable of anything " Meaning forget or throw away your beliefs, and those bonds that hold you back from growing as a person.

You ask if we have any freedom to strive and life for, to that all I can say is can you name one freedom, one truth in your view that you find gives purpose for everything you do ? If so, then perhaps that is the freedom of which you speak. If not then perhaps you like myself are still searching for it.

As for living in America, I live in the Country called the United States of America, and I am a proud citizen of this country, but I will not look away from its faults in fear or ignorance. If you love something you let it be the illusion of perfection, if you honor something you try to make it perfection. Now I thought of taking a jab at your statement of seeing wars in this country day to day, but Ill just say this, I have not seen a war in this country in my whole life, nor has anyone else, because our country has not had a war in it since 1864 The Civil war, and before that the Mexican American war, and before that the Revolutionary war. We could debate semantics over Pearl Harbor, or the World Trade Center attack, if you like.

As for your question of pity for the species, I show none. Humans can make choices wrong or right, kill or release, they built themselves sewer and they can lay in it.
 
But that last quote only there-in attacks your own self with your own words considering that you are part of that species.

And by war, I didn't mean like the up in arms in heroic's like we see in the other war systems.

I meant war as in gang wars, violence. The necessity of rage and anger alone has risen quite a great deal then it used to stand at.

I bet you've probably read paper articles about smart students who've shot themselves, or gotten raped, etc.

Well every last one of those,(Even though it's technically called suicide or crime) fits into the profile of an everyday-to-day war of it's own caliber.

The twin towers....It's best we leave that particular, alone, considering that I lived in Ny when they fell.

To answer your question, I suppose my freedom that helps me in day to day life, would have to be inner peace.

But then here's another point to consider.
If indeed you are proud to be what you are, and you shine light on the dark tunnels, does that mean that your perfect?
None of us is perfect, we each have flaws. Every human across the earth has a flaw. It's a given.

But then also consider this, does not this country give you the "choice" to exercise the right to vote. And the right of freedom to say what you wish?
 
Indeed I am part of the species and I know that, but to pity yourself for your own actions or lack of action is a waste of time. As I said people can make choices, so if you dislike something learn how to change it and work at getting it changed. Gang wars....sorry but I could care less. To get into a gang you have to get initiated, and then you do numerous things that break the law as it is. Why should we show pity or care to those who believe themselves so far below the system that they do not need to follow its laws. As for violence, Violence is part of what humans are, and will most likely be part of what we are for many generations to come.

Now you claim we have a necessity for rage and anger, I disagree. However it is far more prevalent now than it was say sixty years ago, when there was no international news at peoples finger tips, anger, rage sorrow, pain they have been around with humanity since its inception, and just because it wasn't always heard about didn't mean it wasn't there.

People committing suicide well that's also been around a long time, young people (teenagers) most often were the ones who off'ed themselves but here and there you have adults who did something they were ashamed of and did away with themselves as well. Just because it wasn't public knowledge back in the day didn't mean it didn't happen. For instance I remember the suicide of my friend in 1988, that was not on the news (CNN) but it happened. Now the case you could try to make the case that murder/suicides has gone up in the teenage age groups, but that could be attributed to the motto of " If I'm going, I'm taking you bastards with me " .

As for the case of Rape, that one is a hard one for me to claim one way on or another because there have been remarkable developments in chemistry which have made that particular crime easier. However we could take a look at the dark ages and find a higher rate of rape if it was reported, but only Nobel woman could ever be able to claim that and often enough it was not spoken of.

Now claiming rape, and suicide as parts of a war, seems to me to be a blunt and wasteful argument. Certainly there have always been deserters in wars who off'ed themselves, and rape can be a tool of war, but I do not see those being related to the rapes, and suicides that take place in this country.

I am proud to be an United States Citizen, but through critiquing of the system that does not by any means mean I am perfect. It means I honor this country and what it is supposed to stand for,yet I will look at it carefully and disagree with its failing when I encounter them. Now then as I stated earlier this country does give certain freedoms to the people, although many of those freedoms are en encroached upon by the Govt of this nation. For instance freedom of speech, can be cause to be claimed a terrorist if you say something to the effect of " I hope that bastard dies ( In reference to Bush)" or to a lesser extent "I wanna blow up the DMV for making me wait in line for that long".

The United States of America, does allow its citizens certain freedoms and rights, but those rights and freedoms are able to be taken away if deemed necessary for national security. If allowed to be taken under such pretenses eventually we become a Tyranny, or a dictatorship your choice of titles. Now I would like to offer you two small things to Read the first being
Socrates Appology and the other being Platos Crito.
 
*smiles* OOOH reading material. I absolouteley love greek stuff.
*gives mith a plate full of happy thoughts and warm fresh cookies*

But, on this discussion at it's final closing, I must say, that you have outspoken me on the subject.

There is nothing more(soft laugh) for me to say.
 
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